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Can 16 bit pan/tilt faders be back in midi section?
they were in there before...
i really desire them in live operations.

Stefan Wempe

I'm curious how you would see that.
Midi values have a range of 0...127. For any mapping to an DMX channel these values are doubled to reach the 0...254 values of the DMX range.
So, we are already missing 'half' the resolution for just the 8 bit pan/tilt operation already. There is nothing to do about that. Midi is designed that way a really long ago (way before DMX) and is no subject to be changed.
Where would the data for the 16-bit pan/tilt channel come from? There is no data for it, so implementing it is useless in my opinion.

You could use a second fader for the 16-bit channel though (Midi to DMX mapping), but I really don't see how one is going to use that nicely...

remco_k wrote:I'm curious how you would see that.
Midi values have a range of 0...127. For any mapping to an DMX channel these values are doubled to reach the 0...254 values of the DMX range.
So, we are already missing 'half' the resolution for just the 8 bit pan/tilt operation already. There is nothing to do about that. Midi is designed that way a really long ago (way before DMX) and is no subject to be changed.
Where would the data for the 16-bit pan/tilt channel come from? There is no data for it, so implementing it is useless in my opinion.

You could use a second fader for the 16-bit channel though (Midi to DMX mapping), but I really don't see how one is going to use that nicely...

A lot of better quality fixtures use a second pan and tilt in 16 bit mode for very fine adjustments. Its not something I ever use but I do know a lot of guys that use 16 bit p&t. As Horstfan says it was part of the midi control setup in FS and now it gone. I would guess that Raph got rid of this option to make space for other options instead ?

dmxlighting wrote: A lot of better quality fixtures use a second pan and tilt in 16 bit mode for very fine adjustments. Its not something I ever use but I do know a lot of guys that use 16 bit p&t. As Horstfan says it was part of the midi control setup in FS and now it gone. I would guess that Raph got rid of this option to make space for other options instead ?

I know about the 16 bit pan/tilt. Use it all the time.
Like I said: there is no reason to have the pan/tilt 16 bit implemented as Midi has a resolution that is to low to control even a 8 bit pan/tilt channel and way to low resolution to control 16 bit pan/tilt.
So if it is re-implemented, it has no effect -at all- if used... Thats is what I mean.
The data just is'nt there. With midi values ranging from 0...127 there is nothing to give to the 16-bit channel...

OK sorry I get your point! Midi resolution is pretty weak.

remco_k wrote:

dmxlighting wrote: A lot of better quality fixtures use a second pan and tilt in 16 bit mode for very fine adjustments. Its not something I ever use but I do know a lot of guys that use 16 bit p&t. As Horstfan says it was part of the midi control setup in FS and now it gone. I would guess that Raph got rid of this option to make space for other options instead ?

I know about the 16 bit pan/tilt. Use it all the time.
Like I said: there is no reason to have the pan/tilt 16 bit implemented as Midi has a resolution that is to low to control even a 8 bit pan/tilt channel and way to low resolution to control 16 bit pan/tilt.
So if it is re-implemented, it has no effect -at all- if used... Thats is what I mean.
The data just is'nt there. With midi values ranging from 0...127 there is nothing to give to the 16-bit channel...

if you have the 16 bit feature on a second fader/encoder, it may have some effect, wont it????

LJ_krede.dk wrote: if you have the 16 bit feature on a second fader/encoder, it may have some effect, wont it????

Technically it is possible, but then you suddenly have 2 faders who controls the PAN (or tilt).
The first for the total pan range, the second for really small steps in between one 8 bit PAN (or tilt) value. (And even that one is not possible, because of the midi resolution is to low - the 8 bit fader skips per 2 DMX values, so are still not able to accurately target the pan/tilts). Not even with the second 16 bit fader.

Like I said before: You could use a second fader for the 16-bit channel though (Midi to DMX mapping), but I really don't see how one is going to use that nicely...
See it as upscaling an 8x8 pixel image to an 16x16 pixel image. It is possible but the real resolution does not improve.
Using a second fader for 16 bit pan/tilt would be this comparison: an 8x12 pixels image upscaling to an 16x16 image.
Taking that 'improvement' into account and the weird way you have to control your lights then, is telling me that no one is going to use that.

If you want -accurate- 16 bit pan tilt controls, use your mouse in the pan tilt window. That is the only HID that has a proper input resolution for this.

i use the ROBE robin series wich have a seperate 16bit channels for pan&tilt
the extra faders (though skipping 2 dmx channels at a time) are still enough accurate for me
(exact pointing in theathre shows)

LJ_krede.dk wrote:if you have the 16 bit feature on a second fader/encoder, it may have some effect, wont it????

Why not use 4 faders... Sum the values up and you got 16 bit. Ok, I think this will not be realy usefull and hard to control.

Current solution with one 8 bit fader and anotzer 16 bit fader seams best solution. Even the values are not exact (only 0...127) it is the same way DMX hardware controllers work and fixtures are implementet.

when you set up the BCF2000 with BC edit you can choose 14 bit mode for the encoders/faders. What's this and can it be used for the mentioned purpose?

horstefan wrote:i use the ROBE robin series wich have a seperate 16bit channels for pan&tilt
the extra faders (though skipping 2 dmx channels at a time) are still enough accurate for me
(exact pointing in theathre shows)

Ever thought about the pan/tilt up/down controls? this way you can press a key once and the pan or tilt value increments (or decrements) by one.
This gives you a pretty exact way, I believe.
In the Midi control setup they are named: pan left, pan right, tilt up and tilt down
I use those functions to point to an exact location.

LJ_krede.dk wrote:when you set up the BCF2000 with BC edit you can choose 14 bit mode for the encoders/faders. What's this and can it be used for the mentioned purpose?

A 14 bit fader (which is normal 7 bit (0...127)) can have a range of 0...16384. But Midi can't do that on a single midi note. So that fader should output its values through 2 midi notes. The first note for the first 7 bits, the second for the second 7 bits. I'm curious if it does work that way. Can you check that some way?
If so; then this request has a reason to be re-implemented.

Its still missing 2 bits resolution for a good 16 bit pan/tilt operation, but is better then a 7 bit source upscaled to 16 bit. It becomes 14 bit upscaled to 16 bit. Which is a lot better.
Next to that, this will only help the people with a BCF2000 controller or a controller that has the same 14 bit mode for a fader.

remco_k wrote:A 14 bit fader (which is normal 7 bit (0...127)) can have a range of 0...16384. But Midi can't do that on a single midi note. So that fader should output its values through 2 midi notes. The first note for the first 7 bits, the second for the second 7 bits. I'm curious if it does work that way. Can you check that some way?

the bcf I have access to is defect, it erases my presets when i turn it off or change preset with the preset buttons. Maybe dmxlighting can do it using the MIDI-ox to track the midi signal

Ever thought about the pan/tilt up/down controls? this way you can press a key once and the pan or tilt value increments (or decrements) by one.
This gives you a pretty exact way, I believe.
In the Midi control setup they are named: pan left, pan right, tilt up and tilt down
I use those functions to point to an exact location.

since 16 bit is no longer in the list i cant assign this...
i really want to use the 16bit channels of my robin heads...
the difference between 1 and 2 bits (midi-->dmx) is nearly noticeable in 16bit but 8bit channels are.

for a fun fact (off-topic)

i own a behringer DDM4000 dj mixer with MIDI, i linked it with my BCF and assigned some buttons in freestyler (stroboscope effects etc)
the DJ really appreciated it cause he could built up the beat some more with lighting effects... (making my job alot easyer:P)

LJ_krede.dk wrote:

remco_k wrote:A 14 bit fader (which is normal 7 bit (0...127)) can have a range of 0...16384. But Midi can't do that on a single midi note. So that fader should output its values through 2 midi notes. The first note for the first 7 bits, the second for the second 7 bits. I'm curious if it does work that way. Can you check that some way?

the bcf I have access to is defect, it erases my presets when i turn it off or change preset with the preset buttons. Maybe dmxlighting can do it using the MIDI-ox to track the midi signal

Maybe I should contact Behringer see if they would want to supply one for a competition!!