Support Forum

Hi Guys,

I am hoping to experiment on an upcoming gig with avoiding hiring a pearl and using freestyler instead. There are only 13 fixtures (6 macs, 4 scans and 3 Atomics) + some LED pars so a pearl seems overkill, but I am used to how it works in a live envronment so usually hire one.

I have been using FS with my own, much cheaper. kit or a while and thought I would give it a go with the a proper rig

There are a couple of things that I generally use on a pearl which I am trying to find a similar technique for in FS. I wonder if anyone any suggestions for better ways of using FS. Any help would be great, its always good to learn more about FS!

Overrides/ Palettes
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Generally on a pearl, at run time, I use the submasters to play back shapes, movements and chases. E.g. scan moves, dimmer chases/ states etc. Then I use palettes to select colours, gobos, rotation, strobe speeds etc.

In freestyler, I was thinking of using the overrides for the same, but there is one major difference. Using palettes on a pearl, you can first select a group of fixtures, then apply a palette, say "red". The palette then only apply's to the selected fixtures. So you can make just one "red" button and use it at will on the rig.

As far as I understand it, using overrides I would need to create a seperate "Red" override for every fixture group. Is that right, or is there a better way to get this effect. Ultimately, I'd like to add the appropriate buttons to a touchscreen interface, so you can choose (group 1 --> red, Group 2 --> Blue)

Ran out of space, so following on...

Submaster Go...
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I am hoping to use a korg nanokontrol to control the submasters. This has 2 buttons, 1 fader and 1 knob per for each submaster. I was hoping therefore to use the buttons to move up and down the cues in a submaster, the fader for the intensity and the knob for speed where appropriate.

The problems I have is this, to actually change the cue, you need to press the "go" button. But I dont have any buttons left for this! On a pearl, if you drop the fader to 0, change to a different cue and then push it up again, this activates the new cue automatically.

Do you know if it is possible to achieve this sort of behaviour in FS? Alternatively, how do you guys set up your controllers to select cues on a submaster?


Shape size
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Right last one, and I know that this is an extremely unlikely one to be able to replicate! One last thing on a pearl, is the ability to assign a fader on a memory so that it controls the "size" of a movement shape being played back, rather than the intensity of the fixtures (can also be set to control speed instead). This can be really useful for some exciting builds etc. ;o) Any one know of a way to replicate that sort of behaviour


I know its asking a bit much for a free piece of software (however great it is Raph to act like a pearl, but if it can get most of the way there (its not far off) with a little inginuity, then that would be fantastic.


Here's hoping

bckeeping wrote: Overrides/ Palettes
...
As far as I understand it, using overrides I would need to create a seperate "Red" override for every fixture group. Is that right, or is there a better way to get this effect. Ultimately, I'd like to add the appropriate buttons to a touchscreen interface, so you can choose (group 1 --> red, Group 2 --> Blue)

Maybe this helps: create fixture groups, assign to keys (X) on your keyboard.
Also assign a key (Y) to open the color dialog (I believe this is possible).
Now, to change the color of a group: Key X, then Y en then a mouse click on the color that you want. Not really that handy. I know. Should avoid using the mouse. But it is a way...

bckeeping wrote: Submaster Go...
...
The problems I have is this, to actually change the cue, you need to press the "go" button. But I dont have any buttons left for this! On a pearl, if you drop the fader to 0, change to a different cue and then push it up again, this activates the new cue automatically.

I have the same nanoKontrol and the same problem. It would be nice to have an option that the intensity fader of the submaster also calls the 'go' when from 0 to higher.
Alternatively: I've used the shift function in FS. So I assigned one of the most left keys on the nanoKontrol (<<) to act as a shift button. Then I programmed all upper buttons of the faders to do the 'back' function. The lower buttons are not used in the shift function. When I'm not in shift mode the upper buttons are 'next cue' and the lower ones are 'go'. So If I need to go back: shift (<<)+upper button. And to start: lower button. Next cue: upper button.

Shape size
...
Right last one, and I know that this is an extremely unlikely one to be able to replicate! One last thing on a pearl, is the ability to assign a fader on a memory so that it controls the "size" of a movement shape being played back, rather than the intensity of the fixtures (can also be set to control speed instead). This can be really useful for some exciting builds etc. ;o) Any one know of a way to replicate that sort of behaviour

Agreed. Its not there now, but would be a nice to have.

remco_k wrote:

bckeeping wrote: Submaster Go...
...
The problems I have is this, to actually change the cue, you need to press the "go" button. But I dont have any buttons left for this! On a pearl, if you drop the fader to 0, change to a different cue and then push it up again, this activates the new cue automatically.

I have the same nanoKontrol and the same problem. It would be nice to have an option that the intensity fader of the submaster also calls the 'go' when from 0 to higher.
Alternatively: I've used the shift function in FS. So I assigned one of the most left keys on the nanoKontrol (<<) to act as a shift button. Then I programmed all upper buttons of the faders to do the 'back' function. The lower buttons are not used in the shift function. When I'm not in shift mode the upper buttons are 'next cue' and the lower ones are 'go'. So If I need to go back: shift (<<)+upper button. And to start: lower button. Next cue: upper button.

I have my korg nano to work exatly like the pearl and as you want it to do. What you need is the "MIDI-OX" program to manipulate the MIDI signal from the korg before it enters FS.

1) Download and install MIDI-OX MIDI Yoke
2) in the menu "Options --> MIDI Devices..." set input as the nano kontrol and output as MIDIyoke port2
3) Start freestyler and set the MIDI input to MIDIyoke port2

Now, all the MIDI signal from the nano kontrol runs trough MIDI-OX

4) in MIDI-OX select "Options --> Data Mapping..." and set a checkmark in right upper corner to activate the mapping you are about to do
You have to make 3 mappings by pressing the insert button and type values as shown below:

Define mapping 1: Define mapping 2: Define mapping 3: A: is the CC number for the first of your faders you want to use as submaster intensity (subm. intensity 1)
B: is the CC number for the last of your faders you want to use as submaster intensity (subm. intensity 5)
C: is the CC number for the first of your buttons you want to control the submaster toggle (Toggle Submaster 1)
D: is the CC number for the last of your buttons you want to control the submaster toggle (Toggle Submaster 5)

as you can see the faders and toggle buttons I use have CC numbers which next to eachtoher. if you don't have that you may have to map each fader/button individually.

Press OK and you are good to go and play FS with a twist of pearl

I'm a bit tired right now, so don't know if it make sence. feel free to ask again

I played with it and found ouf if you change scene (Go and back buttons) while the submaster is running it will fuck up. the MIDI toggle function starts AND stops the same sequence if the sequence is selected. if you choose another sequence which is not runnng and the MIDI toggle signal is send to FS, it will just star this sequence,,, that will screw up the midi mapping in MIDI-OX... I will try to see if i can find a work around but I doubt it

Hi Guys, thanks for all the really useful feedback

Submasters
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Hey LJ, nice try with the midi-ox. I use this software too so I thought I'd have a play with your idea, but I couldn't work out how to do it either. Shame there isnt seperate stop/run functions available through midi, or better still the run when over 0 option you describe. Think I will go with your idea on using the "shift" function Remco. Seems the best way for the mo.

As you cannot access more than 5 submasters at a time, I have created buttons to go through the pages of submasters. But now I find of course that when on page 2, the speed controls still control page 1 submasters. How have you guys gotten around this, any ideas?? Another one for Raph?

Palettes
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On the palette/focus issue, its a shame there is no better way, might suggest to Raph that shortcut keys/midi could be assigned to specific presets, or that override buttons could be set to "only override selected fixtures".

A workaround I thought of for this was to create seperate memories for each group/preset combination. Then use a seperate override button page for each group, ensuring that all similar presets are on the same override button number, e.g. fast spinning prism on button 8. Then by labelling the toucscreen appropriately you could press Scans (override page 1) -> Prism Fast (override button 8) or Stage Macs (override page 3) --> Prism Fast (override button 8).
This works but it is massively time consuming and pretty restrictive!

Wishful thinking on the assigning submaster faders to attributes other than the intensity I suppose, but maybe another one for the wishlist
I know Raph gets plenty of requests for changes and ideas, but this exercise appears to have given me a nice list

bckeeping wrote:As you cannot access more than 5 submasters at a time, I have created buttons to go through the pages of submasters. But now I find of course that when on page 2, the speed controls still control page 1 submasters. How have you guys gotten around this, any ideas??

I run 5 submaster tabs for some shows and control it with a bcf2000. I have set up a group of 4 buttons on the bcf to change sm tab on demand. This way I can jump from tab 1 to tab 5. When I change sm tab my bcf only controls the current tab. I don't need to do any clever stuff to achive this it just works.
I going to guess that you have setup the control using 'next submaster tab' and 'previous submaster tab' (ive never used this myself). I use the 'toggle submaster 1, 2, 3, 4, 5' so each sm tab is on a separate button rather than 2 buttons to navigate all 5. Its probably worth a try as Im sure this will solve this problem.

Hi dmx hanks for the reply.

That makes sense, but if you use the rotary encoders at the top for speed control for arguments sake, dont these stay attached to sequences 1-5 even when you move to submaster page 4?

The problem I am finding is that the sequence speed controls are attached to sequences 1-20, whereas the fader controls are always submaster 1-5 of the curent page.

Does that make sense, or am I missing something fundamental?

B.

bckeeping wrote:Hi dmx hanks for the reply.

That makes sense, but if you use the rotary encoders at the top for speed control for arguments sake, dont these stay attached to sequences 1-5 even when you move to submaster page 4?

The problem I am finding is that the sequence speed controls are attached to sequences 1-20, whereas the fader controls are always submaster 1-5 of the curent page.

Does that make sense, or am I missing something fundamental?

B.

You are right.. the MIDI Sequence speed 1-5 is not controlled by the submaster, and will not change... Right now, i'm trying to see if there is a work aournd using MIDI-OX. If any people know other program to map/manipulate/change MIDI signal, Please let me know. MIDI-OX is okay but need more options to get the nano kontrol to work as a pearl

I have the speed control asigned to the faders on the bcf so I can control the first 8 and then I change page on the bcf and control the next 8 and so on.

This is done by programing the bcf. My setup keeps all buttons and encoders the same on each page and only the fader values change.
Hope this makes sense to you. Its not perfect but it works for me.

dmxlighting wrote:I have the speed control asigned to the faders on the bcf so I can control the first 8 and then I change page on the bcf and control the next 8 and so on.

This is done by programing the bcf. My setup keeps all buttons and encoders the same on each page and only the fader values change.
Hope this makes sense to you. Its not perfect but it works for me.

a good workaruond but you still have to press two times: one push to change submaster page and one push to change Sequence Speeds (1-8. 9-16, 17-20), right?

okay, I got it working like this:
when I press "button 1" on my nanokontrol, I can control seq speed 1-5 on encoder 1-5 and submaster 1-5 on fader and the two buttons on 1-5
when I press "button 2" on my nanokontrol, I can control seq speed 6-10 on encoder 1-5 and submaster 6-10 on fader and the two buttons on 1-5
when I press "button 3" on my nanokontrol, I can control seq speed 11-15 on encoder 1-5 and submaster 11-15 on fader and the two buttons on 1-5
when I press "button 2" on my nanokontrol, I can control seq speed 16-20 on encoder 1-5 and submaster 16-20 on fader and the two buttons on 1-5

Just like we want it but it was really complex to get it to work and it takes a bit of explanation to tell you guys how I did it,

You need to use the program change note. if MIDI-OX recieves this, it can call different mappings. this way you can map the encoders to match the submaster page.

unfortunately the nanocontrol can't send out program change notes, but the BCF can, so it is much easier to set it up on that controller.

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READ THIS IF YOU USE A NANOKONTROL OR ANY OTHER MIDI CONTROLLER WHICH CAN'T SEND OUT PROGRAM CHANGE NOTES:: IF IT CAN (like the BCF2000) SKIB THIS.

if you use the nanokorg you have to open an extra MIDI-OX where the MIDI from the naonkorg enters before the second MIDI-OX. remember to set both MIDI-OX up so the the signal goes through these two before it enters FS
Here you have to make one mapping:
submaster page buttons 1-4 (value 1) when the value2 is 127--> set it to send out program change notes 1-4
Make sure you set a checkmark at "Pass Original Value on (Clone)".
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FOR ALL MIDI CONTROLLERS:

1) with the BCedit program you have to change the 4 buttons (you cant use next and prev submaster page for this trick) to send out program change 1-4.
2) in MIDI-OX you have to make 4 filters with 1-2 mappings each

Filter 1
Mapping 1:
program change 1-4 --> control change 1-4

Lets save the filter as "filter 1" for this tutorial

Filter 2
Mapping 1:
program change 1-4 --> control change 1-4
Mapping 2:
The control change numbers for the 5 encoders/fader you want to use as speed (lets say number 1-5 to simplify this tutorial) --> set the control change number to 6-10

Save the filter as "filter 2"

Filter 3
Mapping 1:
program change 1-4 --> control change 1-4
Mapping 2:
The control change numbers for the 5 encoders/fader you want to use as speed (lets say number 1-5 to simplify this tutorial) --> set the control change number to 11-15

Save the filter as "filter 3"

Filter 4
Mapping 1:
program change 1-4 --> control change 1-4
Mapping 2:
The control change numbers for the 5 encoders/fader you want to use as speed (lets say number 1-5 to simplify this tutorial) --> set the control change number to 16-20

Save the filter as "filter 4"

3) go to "Options --> patch mapping" in MIDI-OX main window
4) press assign and find the filter files you have saved:
number 1: Filter 1
number 2: Filter 2
number 3: Filter 3
number 4: Filter 4

now it should work
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I hope you guys understand this... if not, write your issue and I will try to explain it better

I have used some time playing with MIDI-OX and understand how it works a bit better. Now I think I can get any MIDI controller to work as I or you want..
However it is really dificult to explain what i'm doing so if you want me map everything for you send me some information and I wil do it for you.

@ bckeeping. PM me with your wishes and the scene data file for your nanokontrol, so i can see which CC notes i have to map. also send be a description of which faders/encoders/buttons you want to work with the submaster in pear.-style

@ dmxlighting - you can do the same but i'm not that much into the BCF and how the LED rings and motorized faders on the BCF react when i'm mapping. maybe i have to map the output from MIDI-OX to BCF as well, i dont know.

I'm not promise anything But I think i can do something

LJ_krede.dk wrote:I have used some time playing with MIDI-OX and understand how it works a bit better. Now I think I can get any MIDI controller to work as I or you want..
However it is really dificult to explain what i'm doing so if you want me map everything for you send me some information and I wil do it for you.

@ bckeeping. PM me with your wishes and the scene data file for your nanokontrol, so i can see which CC notes i have to map. also send be a description of which faders/encoders/buttons you want to work with the submaster in pear.-style

@ dmxlighting - you can do the same but i'm not that much into the BCF and how the LED rings and motorized faders on the BCF react when i'm mapping. maybe i have to map the output from MIDI-OX to BCF as well, i dont know.

I'm not promise anything But I think i can do something

Hey Kristian

Thats so cool stuff you have go into there! Thanks for the offer of mapping but I want to work this out and set it up myself (when I have time!). I will read through all of your info and when / if I get stuck I will be intouch with you.
Well done on all your research, keep up the good work and keep us posted with any new developments.

Fanastic work sir!

I am looking to completely change my midi map over the course of today anyway, It has grown organically and requires some tidying! so i'll have a go myself based on your info.

If I get stuck I'll definitely get back in touch

bckeeping wrote:Fanastic work sir!

did you mean fanatic or fantastic work??

so, bckeeping, how did it go? was FS working as a pearl or what ?

last weekend I did lights for different bands with a pearl 2008. I lek the flexibility and the palettes when you dont know any of the bands and the music. I used this guide and cheat sheet which worked pretty well. there is a huge different in how FS and pearl works, at least thats my opinion. FS i better for disco and bands where you can preprogram the show (using the new cue stack plugin). pearl is more flexible in live shows, but cost about 8000 EUR more than FS.

LJ_krede.dk wrote:but cost about 8000 EUR more than FS.

Which depends on what one had donated to Raph.

Hi Guys,

Gig is on the 14th now, I am working with Raph on a few patches which might help
Havent taken the pearl off the order as yet, but we will see

I am a massive fan of that desk, even for dance music club events as it gives you lots of flexibility to really "feel" the music and play the lights like an instrument.
You can break your programming down to its consituent parts and then modify, apply and change it at run time, which is nice

As you say FS at the moment is better where there is an opportunity to pre-program a lot of it, but it does have the potential

Thanks for all your help thus LJ, I'll let you know what ends up happening on friday. I have found a company which rents the cheaper and small pearl "tiger" relatively cheaply, so I may get one of those just in case, but try out FS to see if it would work in future

We shall see!

now it is the 18th,,, so how did it go?

YEAH this page have Solved ALOT of my problems.
First , how BCkeeping wan'ts the comparison About FS and Pearl.(it's just the same as i program a pearl)
Second, that i realy need to learn alot more about MIDI.

Thnks

Hi Guys,

We got a pearl in the end I am afraid as we didn't quite get there with the override/palette features. In fact I think we may have even used a Chamsys desk as we wanted to make use of the pixel mapping features.

But I haven't given up and am about to go and log a couple of "feature" requests that I think would plug the gaps if Raph gets the time. I have been out of the loop for a while and a few things seem to have changed.

TBH , freestyler is certainly approaching what the pearl can do, in its latest re-incarnation. I am of course talking about a pearl 2008 or similar, not the new Titan powered ones.

Main differences that I see at the moment in terms of live busking usability would be :
- Ability to create pallettes and apply them as overrides at run time. e.g. for overriding colours etc to specific fixtures (this is the one that we nearly got right in the last release)
- timed palettes - e.g. choosing a position override button and having fixtures move there over a specified period
- Assigning a fader to control LTP channels or parameters such as speed and size of a shape in a memory

Obviously there are a lot of other things that make it £8k too

We have a few more medium sized gigs coming up in the next few months and I'd like to take another look and see if FS might be good enough now.
Particularly given the trials I have had with the touchOSC app in the last few weeks.

hi i also use the Pearl sometimes, the Pearl Tiger, 2008, 2010 (classic and Tiger mode)

but if i remeber it correct i allready ask the Devolper for:
- Pallet feature
- IF Sm is not used for Ltp it can be used as Speed slider
- Move relative From postion.

There is allready a Featureso you can Move Abosolute to a Postion and set the speed with the speed slider.
but offcourse you can ask it again maby he will make it the next time

/spirit

Hi Spirit,

Yup lots of the constituent parts are there. I guess we could ask using the feature request piece and see what drops out.

In fact, the palette feature is there, but you cannot apply a palette using a midi controller or similar while busking, only when programming with the mouse.

Last time we looked at this, Raph implemented a feature where you can apply an override button just to selected fixtures, which is sort of like the palette override on a pearl, but it doesnt *quite* work, because the button stays lit up and if you press it again it turns off.

You are dead right on the speed slider piece, you can use the sequence speed to control this, but there isn't an LTP or a size option as there is a on a pearl.

You can also record shapes as relative can't you?

the point about freestyler is everything is Aboslute you can only move your heads/mirrors Relative with the pan/tilt window, but not durring live use (SM, cue, Cuelist buttons)

yes i also tried it with the override buttons , Selected fixture but indeed it did not work as on a Pearl.
i use it on a Differnt way, add the color on the SM and Override.
so if i use the Sm all Lights will turn to the Color and if i use the override buttons i can select a group of fixture and add a Other color. so you can chnage color from 2 Differnt groups of lights.

and in the End i dont use the pallet feature allot. like Odd fixtures Color red and Even fixture color blue.
if i use this on Freestyler i will just make a Nice button says Red-blue.

And set the Size from a Shape on a slider i never use this on the pearl but everyone is differnt.

i also like to have Flash button for each submaster.
/spirit