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Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

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Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by hippydog »

I've had a few DJ's tell me they didnt like the Auto sound to light's in freestyler (its ok but not great yet)..

How about something even better!?

Virtual DJ (one of the top 4 DJ programs used right now), allows plug-ins to be used.
I'm not a 'modern programmer' (last time I used a 'C' compiler was over 10 years ago.), but it doesnt look that hard.

Make a DLL (.com) for Virtual DJ; C++ with the VdjPlugin.h & stdio.h headers, that returns the BPM directly from the deck.
GetInfo(char *query, void *result)
Query = Bpm(float*): return the bpm (including pitch correction).
and you would also have to knwo which side the fader is on.
Query = Crossfader(int*): return the position of the crossfader (0=left, 4096=right).

If Rapheal then took that BPM number he could directly pop it into the BPM OF FREESTYLER.. :)

your thoughts? good idea? bad idea? :fs:


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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by kikabyte »

Good and well thought out idea...its just takes time!

Keep them coming!
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by Mattotone »

fantastic idea, i use virtual DJ As well and would make it work a lot better.
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by djdougatl »

Ok I use virtuial dj and freestlyer. I love the idea of using the bpm of the song to work with freestlyer but, I have no clue what you are talking about. I understand make a plugin for virtual dj but can someone help me or send me exact instructions on how to do it.
Thanks,
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by hippydog »

djdougatl wrote:Ok I use virtuial dj and freestlyer. I love the idea of using the bpm of the song to work with freestlyer but, I have no clue what you are talking about. I understand make a plugin for virtual dj but can someone help me or send me exact instructions on how to do it.
Thanks,
It's just an idea..
I was just excited because it seemed a very REAL possibility :)

First step i guess is to keep this thread *bumped* up,
and (then) maybe someone with some 'real' programming skills would be willing to make us the .DLL Plug-in for Virtual DJ..
Last step would be to convince "Rapheal" to use the 'BPM' # given to him from the 'plug-in' and make a change to 'Freestyler' where the "Tap Sync" button would become a "BPM" button and would get its number either from tapping or from Virtual DJ (or any other software that allows plug ins)
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by Shannon D »

Any movement on this idea? I use VDJ as well.
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by Mattotone »

I don't think any ones taken the idea on, i use Virtual DJ at work, so don;t have access to the Vitual DJ Forum which has all the sample code and SDK on.
So unless theres a programmer interested whos a pro user we won't be able to do it. or you could post on the virtual dj forum and see if theres an fs users on there willing to make it.
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by dmxlighting »

If you look at Remco's new S2L interface I think you will all be impressed wether you use VDJ or proper kit! (sorry to have a pop at pc djs :lol: )

I used the new S2L this weekend and it was very very cool. No issues or crashes. My favorite bit is the 'Auto Gain Control'.

Well done Remco on a great add on!

Also well done to Raph on the release of FS V3.2. Also used this at the weekend - no errors or lockups just smooth running all night.

FS is really on the money now. Its putting alot of other software to shame (free or paid for!)
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by remco_k »

hippydog wrote:I've had a few DJ's tell me they didnt like the Auto sound to light's in freestyler (its ok but not great yet)..

How about something even better!?

Virtual DJ (one of the top 4 DJ programs used right now), allows plug-ins to be used.
I'm not a 'modern programmer' (last time I used a 'C' compiler was over 10 years ago.), but it doesnt look that hard.

Make a DLL (.com) for Virtual DJ; C++ with the VdjPlugin.h & stdio.h headers, that returns the BPM directly from the deck.
GetInfo(char *query, void *result)
Query = Bpm(float*): return the bpm (including pitch correction).
and you would also have to knwo which side the fader is on.
Query = Crossfader(int*): return the position of the crossfader (0=left, 4096=right).

If Rapheal then took that BPM number he could directly pop it into the BPM OF FREESTYLER.. :)

your thoughts? good idea? bad idea? :fs:
Somehow I missed this topic, but hey, beter late than never. :mrgreen:
Although its a nice idea, just having the BPM is'nt gonna help much as FreeStyler needs the real beat moments. Having the BPM next to that is a "nice to have" but without the beat (or trigger, name it what you like) moments this would not work. Looking at this API I don't see a way to get those beat moments.
Or am I missing some point?

About programming, I do that for a living. Using C++ most of the time. Its an old but good working language and the most important for me (and the company): you can get really low level without very much other "shit" in between. Saving Memory usage and CPU power. (I'm not saying that this is impossible with other languages or frameworks, its just a choice.)
dmxlighting wrote: Well done Remco on a great add on!
You're welcome!
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by Mattotone »

i think there must be away of getting the actual bpm triggers.
i use the DMC2 hardware controler and since the new update of virtual dj athe sync light now flashes to the beat.
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by remco_k »

Okay, so there seems to be a way to get the beat trigger. How to do that is another question.

But, I wonder if implementing all that somewhere, is actually working better than using the sound 2 light app? Since both applications only can do one thing: analyze the sound. Maybe VDJ has a better way of finding the beats, maybe its working just as good or even maybe the new sound 2 light app works better.

I don't know. Maybe someone can test it, I'm quite curious.
If it is really a big step ahead against the built in beat detection in S2L, I'll think about implementing this, some day. But then again I'd rather work on a better beat detection in S2L (without the VDJ API), as other users have more benefit from that.
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by hippydog »

remco_k wrote:Okay, so there seems to be a way to get the beat trigger. How to do that is another question.

But, I wonder if implementing all that somewhere, is actually working better than using the sound 2 light app? Since both applications only can do one thing: analyze the sound. Maybe VDJ has a better way of finding the beats, maybe its working just as good or even maybe the new sound 2 light app works better.

I don't know. Maybe someone can test it, I'm quite curious.
If it is really a big step ahead against the built in beat detection in S2L, I'll think about implementing this, some day. But then again I'd rather work on a better beat detection in S2L (without the VDJ API), as other users have more benefit from that.
VDJ's newest version now has a MIDI Tempo Clock output..
I'm wondering if this would make it any easier to connect the two programs up?

and ya.. the sound 2 light app is pretty awesome..
but (theirs always a but LOL)
the BPM in Virtual DJ has already been setup and tweeked for each song.. basically its perfect..
so having the Tempo controlled by the DJ software means that the lights will ALWAYS be at the correct speed with no fiddling around (volume issues, hard to detect beats, etc etc)

side note I think Tracktor also has a midi clock out now..

so a midi input that controls FS would be the 'standard' it seems..

or is this already available somehow.. I tried to do a search on it, but couldnt find anything of major relevance.
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by LJ_krede.dk »

well, there is a manual trigger feature in FS which can be controlled by midi. you can use this for the MIDI Tempo Clock output from VDJ.

if you do that you dont have the features you have with the new S2L Beta:
* Beat multiplier
* Sequence restarter
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by remco_k »

Still, having a BPM value (if its from midi or not) is not the same as having a beat trigger every time a beat is there.
In fact, its something completely different. They are related, but thats all.

...Or the midi triggers a channel high on each beat, so then its not a BPM out, but a beat trigger out. Thats what we need. And like LJ Krede sais, that can be connected to FS->Manual trigger.
But for now, I believe the only values we can get from other software is just the BPM value. And that is not gonna help in any way.
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by LJ_krede.dk »

remco_k wrote:Still, having a BPM value (if its from midi or not) is not the same as having a beat trigger every time a beat is there.
In fact, its something completely different. They are related, but thats all.

...Or the midi triggers a channel high on each beat, so then its not a BPM out, but a beat trigger out. Thats what we need. And like LJ Krede sais, that can be connected to FS->Manual trigger.
But for now, I believe the only values we can get from other software is just the BPM value. And that is not gonna help in any way.
but "MIDI Tempo Clock output" is not a bpm value, is it? I thought it was the same as a trigger
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by remco_k »

LJ_krede.dk wrote:
remco_k wrote:Still, having a BPM value (if its from midi or not) is not the same as having a beat trigger every time a beat is there.
In fact, its something completely different. They are related, but thats all.

...Or the midi triggers a channel high on each beat, so then its not a BPM out, but a beat trigger out. Thats what we need. And like LJ Krede sais, that can be connected to FS->Manual trigger.
But for now, I believe the only values we can get from other software is just the BPM value. And that is not gonna help in any way.
but "MIDI Tempo Clock output" is not a bpm value, is it? I thought it was the same as a trigger
Well, thats the question. It depends on how someone has implemented it.
I can interpret it in 2 ways:
1. Its a BPM value
2. Its a beat trigger

The question is, wich one is it? Without guessing... :mrgreen:
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by hippydog »

remco_k wrote: Well, thats the question. It depends on how someone has implemented it.
I can interpret it in 2 ways:
1. Its a BPM value
2. Its a beat trigger

The question is, wich one is it? Without guessing... :mrgreen:
I did a little more research..
Turns out its neither ;-(

http://www.motu.com/techsupport/technot ... 5940408679
MIDI Beat Clock
MIDI Beat Clock is a way of synching the tempos of different midi hardware and/or software. It runs at a rate of 24 ppqn (pulses per quarter note). MIDI Beat Clock messages can include tempo change information , whereas MIDI Timecode runs at a constant rate. MIDI Beat Clock only sends start, stop, and rate messages but does not send location information.

MIDI Beat Clock can be used to sync a drum machine to Digital Performer, or sync programs like ReBirth to Digital Performer. MIDI Beat Clock is also known as Realtime Clock.
http://nic-nac-project.org/~rocket/midi/
(a guy who made up some software that uses it.)

http://little-scale.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... ls-in.html
(with some code ideas)

http://home.roadrunner.com/~jgglatt/tec ... /clock.htm
(has an explanation I actually understood! LOL)
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by hippydog »

Conclusion:

Can Midi Clock or 'real time midi clock', be used to trigger FS directly?
NO..
There still needs to be some sort of 'conversion' utility in front..

Should FS be able to do this? (one day)
YES!

Midi Clock is the standard syncing clock used in the majority of pro audio software, instruments, and sequencers..
Its why VDJ and Tracktor and others are now including it.. because DJ's and Musicians demanded it..

We're not their yet! but I feel were getting closer!
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by cyberb0b »

I thought smpte was mainstream to communicate between apps.

http://www.tweakheadz.com/sync_mmc_mtc_smpte.htm
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by cyberb0b »

Sorry.. I misinterpret it.. :)

But from VDJ its point of view, would not be the easiest way to create a DSP plugin for VDJ which exports the current bpm to freestyler?

I thought the http://www.virtualdj.com/developers/vdjDsp.h had already some variables embedded to export rough bpm.
// Some useful variables
int SongBpm; // number of samples between two consecutive beats
int SongPhase; // number of samples between the start of the song and the first beat
But i am no programmer...

Source : http://www.virtualdj.com/wiki/Developers.html
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by remco_k »

I've tried to explained earlier: BPM info is useless for FreeStyler or any lighting app.
Why? BPM is really something different than a beat trigger, like the one my S2L tool generates.

Lets assume that we do go this way. We give the BPM to FreeStyler. Then we turn it all on and we start our music track in VDJ.
The BPM counter goes to 120. And then? Then FS knows the BPM is 120... And still does not know what we really need. We just know the avarage time between 2 beats, but don't know when the beats occur.

Maybe VDJ has, like the BPM "output", an beat trigger output. I doubt it, but if it has, then that is usefull. On the other hand: we will see that that will work the same, or worse, as my S2L tool. :)
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by hippydog »

maybe theirs some confusion here :-)

lets stay with the 120 BPM example

When we say we want the BPM from VDJ, we are not asking for the lights to "sync" exactly on the down beat.
Why? because even with your S2L tool, which DOES actually trigger on every beat, the enherent limitations of DMX512 and the lights themselves means the lightshow will probably NOT be in EXACT SYNC anyways.. (par lights and LED are the exception, but the majority of DMX lights use motors to change position and colors, which have a delay)
ALSO, music changes, yet the enherent "beat" keeps going.. (IE: their are songs where the downbeat completely changes , yet the "rythym" stays the same)

Soooo!, a true "sync" of lights to music is actually very tough in real life..

What we simply want.. is if the DJ says the BPM is 120 BPM, then we want the 'light sequence' to switch scenes 120 times every minute.. IE: set the scene time to 500ms.
and if VDJ says the BPM is 60, then we want the scene time to change to 1000ms or 1 second
and we want this to stay the same during the entire song! yet switch to a different scene time automatically if we change songs.. (IE: have Freestyler take its scene time from VDJ's BPM)

Maybe the confusion lies in the fact we actually want something thats actually "not as good" as your S2L? LOL , in fact something simpler?

Your S2L is AWESOME.. I would put it on par with Sunlights! but I've noticed in some cases a "true" S2L trigger can actually look WORSE then a simple static speed change, and as a DJ I don't always have time to "tweek" the settings to get the S2L to "look better" with the song I'm playing..

hopefully I'm making some sense here... and maybe cleared some things up?

thanx!
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by remco_k »

hippydog wrote:maybe theirs some confusion here :-)

lets stay with the 120 BPM example

When we say we want the BPM from VDJ, we are not asking for the lights to "sync" exactly on the down beat.
Why? because even with your S2L tool, which DOES actually trigger on every beat, the enherent limitations of DMX512 and the lights themselves means the lightshow will probably NOT be in EXACT SYNC anyways.. (par lights and LED are the exception, but the majority of DMX lights use motors to change position and colors, which have a delay)
ALSO, music changes, yet the enherent "beat" keeps going.. (IE: their are songs where the downbeat completely changes , yet the "rythym" stays the same)
The limitations of DMX512 is only the time a new DMX512 packet takes to create and 'travel' to the fixtures. Which takes in FreeStyler combination worst case scenario about 50 msec in total. (between FreeStyler telling the light to go on, and the actual moment the light goes on - in case of, for example, a LED fixture).
The speed of sound is 343 meters per second (1125 ft/s), meaning that if you are standing 17,15 meter (56,6 feet) from the speakers in the venue, you'll see the lights go on exactly in sync or even earlier. ;) (And ofcourse some digital amps and processors add an extra built in delay for processing time, could me 5 msec or more...)
For PAR spots you could enable some kind of pre-glow, responds are way faster. Still there would be a small delay, but I can guarantee that that still looks better then just taking the 120 BPM signal.
Pan/tilt movement or any other mechanic operations is a choice to use on Sound 2 light signal. I often choose not to.
Soooo!, a true "sync" of lights to music is actually very tough in real life..

What we simply want.. is if the DJ says the BPM is 120 BPM, then we want the 'light sequence' to switch scenes 120 times every minute.. IE: set the scene time to 500ms.
and if VDJ says the BPM is 60, then we want the scene time to change to 1000ms or 1 second
and we want this to stay the same during the entire song! yet switch to a different scene time automatically if we change songs.. (IE: have Freestyler take its scene time from VDJ's BPM)
The real problem here is internal timing. It is frankly impossible to let FreeStyler (or for that matter any other app) run an internal trigger at 120 BPM wich does not shift a very tiny bit every time from the 120 BPM that VDJ thinks to have. The longer it runs, the larger the offsync will be, until the beat is exact at the same point and then the story begins over and over again.
The only solution for that is FreeStyler and VDJ have a common time-sync source (lets say a simple one, the internal clock of the computer). I don't know if VDJ uses the internal clock of the computer to calculate the BPM. If so, then this is the common time-sync source and will eliminate the shift problem. But my guess is that VDJ does NOT use the internal clock of the computer but uses the sample rate of the current played track (the same way S2L calculates the BPM) that sample rate is played out through the soundcard which has its own internal clock (way better than any other mainboard time source but still can vary more than 0,01%). FS does not have that info at all so it would shift in time all over the place, making the use of any BPM source from any app without proper time sync kind of useless. Setting the speed of the cue by hand or triggering by hand would be more accurate. :)
Maybe the confusion lies in the fact we actually want something thats actually "not as good" as your S2L? LOL , in fact something simpler?
Its no confision, using the BPM will just be not as great as people like to think.
Your S2L is AWESOME.. I would put it on par with Sunlights! but I've noticed in some cases a "true" S2L trigger can actually look WORSE then a simple static speed change, and as a DJ I don't always have time to "tweek" the settings to get the S2L to "look better" with the song I'm playing..

hopefully I'm making some sense here... and maybe cleared some things up?
Using the BPM of VDJ does only make sense when used together with a real time sync source (or for that matter, a real beat trigger could be the time sync source).

You can do a tiny test: try to make a sequences that has step times exactly on the beat. (the BPM)
Start it together with the song you've choosen with that BPM... You'll see the time shift that -will- occur and how impossible it is. :)
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Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by Mattotone »

i think i understand what hippy dog is after.
effectively he wants the speed to match the temp of the song, fast bpm = fast scene changes. like the current tempo tap works now. not actually changing scene on the beat.
what i was after was beat triggers. if you use VDJ there is a time line which shows the upcoming beats in a visual format which scroll in time with the music, the beat scrolls past a vertical line to indicate a beat. if you use an external controller you will also notice that every time a beat "beats" the cue light will flash. i want to take this "flash" and advance to the next step in my sequence. or on every 4th beat etc.

exactly how the s2l works now but directly from VDJ instead of the sound card, i haven't realy experimented with the s2l as yet to see how accuracy compares with VDJ if its pretty close (which it probably is) then there would be no need to create a plug in
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synthet1c
Knows how to turn Lights ON
Posts: 2
Joined: August 26th, 2010, 12:58 pm
I Use FreeStyler for: DJ

Re: Freestyler could get its BPM from Virtual DJ!

Post by synthet1c »

Hey guys,
If you are still interested in this application, I have some hopeful news... After a little trying one of the Virtual DJ moderators and plugin makers is seriously considering creating a plugin to control freestyler directly. What he aims to do is have the lights lock to the beat and have the scenes change from cue points on the timeline! to me this sounds really exciting as this would be true sound to light for dj's that you could pre set on songs. If you are interested in this get on to the Virtul DJ forum and say so. The reason nothing like this has happened yet, and it is still up in the air, is not enough of the forum members have shown interest.
Cheers
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