DMX start address in cues

[JoPeMUC]

Hi,

I have played with Freestyler for a while now, and I start to understand more and more.

I started with a simple RGB PAR can. I loaded it into a new location, starting with DMX address 1 and made a first sequence in which it changed color (the first sequence varies channels 1 to 4). This worked fine.

Then I started a new location and added a Eurolite TSL 100 scanner with DMX start address 1. I then made a second sequence for the scanner (the second sequence has two steps and basically uses a shape with different colors and gobos). This also worked fine. But now I want to combine the two, which causes me some trouble.

I added the PAR can with DMX start address 9 to the location. I would like to run both sequences in parallel. However, the first sequence still changes DMX channels 1 to 4, which now belong to the scanner, but not channels 9 to 12 as intended.

So my question is: How do I assign a particular fixture (or its associated start address if you prefer) to a sequence? If I compile a show, I want to use pre-made sequences and apply them to the corresponding fixture. But the setup changes, and so do the start addresses of the fixtures. I want to avoid programming the same sequence again once I know the setup including the start addresses...

Jochen

[Partyman]

There really is no way to do what you are asking with Freestyler. All fixtures have different amounts of channels and attributes. A sequence made with certain addresses and fixtures is useless with different fixtures.
There is a software called Light Rider that works the way you are asking (at least more so)

[JoPeMUC]

Thank your for responding so quickly.

I don't really understand what you mean with "A sequence made with certain addresses and fixtures is useless with different fixtures". I want to use the sequence I made for a particular fixture for the very same one, but with a different start address. Is this such a rare use case?

DMX addresses defining functions of a fixture are relative compared to the start address set in the fixture. So why not use relative addressing for sequences? This would require a single additional parameter only, which could be set in the cue list. Simply shift the channels by the start address minus 1...

Another use case for this problem would involve multiple scanners having different start addresses. So it is not possible to reuse the same sequence for all scanners? Do you really have to program a new sequence for every additional scanner, having exactly the same steps?

Jochen

[Partyman]

If a sequence is made using fixtures at addresses 100, 110, and 120. That sequence cannot be used with any other fixtures not at those addresses. You cannot make generic chases then apply them to whatever fixtures you are using that day. I get the idea of what you are wanting but Freestyler is not written to work that way.

[remco_k]

Although Partyman is right, its not designed to work this way, I'm thinking this would be a great addition to FreeStyler. And quite possibly the amount of work for the developer to get there *might* just be minimal.

There are 2 different ways to make this happen:

1. Make it possible to append one or more fixtures of the same type, at the same time, to a sequence.
User must choose between (already available in the sequence) fixtures where the new one(s) get a clone of DMX values from. FreeStyler then has enough information to clone all steps in the sequence to the newly added fixtures (+its DMX address offset, which can be determined automatically at this point). You would have to save the sequence as new and then you can use it. (because you will probably want to preserve the pre-defined sequence as a pre-defined one)
Example: This allows TS (JoPeMUC) to pre-create a sequence with one specific fixture (at any DMX address) and save that as a sequence (lets call it a pre-defined sequence). Then, some other time, he's in a situation he needs 30 of those fixtures: Open the pre-defined sequence, add the 29 fixtures to the sequence, select the 'source' one, save the sequence as new, add to cue, and ready he is in 1 minute and 30 seconds.

2. Add start address in cues.
From option 1: take the pre-defined sequence (containing one fixture), add it 30 times to the cue, and enter a new start address 29 times.
This option has several drawbacks: a) its very time consuming. b) you need to know the dmx start address, so you'll have to look it up. c) a typo is likely. d) unexpected results are likely when entered a wrong address. e) you're limited in what you do in the sequences.

So, the way I see it at the moment, I would suggest for option 1:
Make it possible to append one or more fixtures of the same type, at the same time, to a sequence.

[JoPeMUC]

I do not understand your first way, maybe because I am not familiar enough yet with Freestyler and sequences.

If I program a sequence, this is nothing but a list of DMX value sets and times between the sets. The sequence is not tied to a particular fixture, or am I wrong here? Manipulating the fixture in a sequence step only facilitates programming the correct values. So I could use a simple dimmerpack fader fixture for programming a sequence and then apply it to any other fixture having the proper start address.

I would prefer the second way, possibly in a minor modification. I would add a field in the cue list like "apply sequence to". This field contains the fixtures to which the sequence shall be applied, and can thus determine the start addresses automatically. You could also provide a list of all fixtures with tick boxes for each one. So the cue list has only one sequence in it, plus a corresponding list of fixtures. This starts the sequence at the same time for all selected fixtures. The user then also has the option to add a sequence for every fixture and to select only one fixture per sequence. They can then be started at arbitrary timings.

Jochen

[remco_k]

If I program a sequence, this is nothing but a list of DMX value sets and times between the sets.

That is correct.

The sequence is not tied to a particular fixture

Also correct, but with this sidenote:
Since every other fixture has its own number of DMX channels and functions for each channel (DMX footprint and personality), this sequence is therefore tied to a particular fixture having the same DMX footprint and personality. Other fixtures with different DMX footprint and personality will respond, but may behave quite unpredictably with this sequence.

Manipulating the fixture in a sequence step only facilitates programming the correct values. So I could use a simple dimmerpack fader fixture for programming a sequence and then apply it to any other fixture having the proper start address.

What do you mean by 'any other fixture'? Another dimmer pack with exactly the same DMX footprint and personality, or really any other fixture, like a RGB fixture, or scanner?
The latter 2 will not be possible - or at least they will show erratic/unpredictable behavior.

I would prefer the second way, possibly in a minor modification. I would add a field in the cue list like "apply sequence to". This field contains the fixtures to which the sequence shall be applied, and can thus determine the start addresses automatically.

Thats right, this eliminates the 'need to know' the start address.
So that makes option 2 more suitable. (And comparable as to what I meant in option 1)

The problem though remains the same: you would have programmed that sequence for that specific fixture model and brand (The same DMX footprint and personality). Otherwise fixtures won't do what you intended for them to do.

[JoPeMUC]

What do you mean by 'any other fixture'? Another dimmer pack with exactly the same DMX footprint and personality, or really any other fixture, like a RGB fixture, or scanner?
The latter 2 will not be possible - or at least they will show erratic/unpredictable behavior.

OK, this gets OT, but I'd like to explain my thoughts.

Say I have an RGB lamp. Channel 1 is red, channel 2 is green, channel 3 is blue.

I first set a dimmer fixture having any number of channels >= 3 with the start address 1. I make a sequence with:
step 1: ch1:255 ch2: 0 ch3:0
step 2: ch1:0 ch2:255 ch3:0

Instead, I could use the correct fixture file with the start address 1. I make the following sequence:
step 1: red full on, green and blue off
step 2: green full on, red and blue off

This would result in the very same sequence, and if I play it, the lamp will flash red and green. I wonder if the playback would even work with an empty location without any fixtures. I will try...

The problem though remains the same: you would have programmed that sequence for that specific fixture model and brand (The same DMX footprint and personality). Otherwise fixtures won't do what you intended for them to do.

I know, and there is no way around it. A sequence belongs to a particular type of fixture, and it would work with another type only if the DMX footprint is compatible by chance. But this is not what I need.

I want plural fixtures to execute the same sequence - but not always. If they shall do the same all the time, they get the same DMX address. In my use case, as far as I understand so far, the only option is manually duplicating an existing sequence in another DMX range such that different fixtures can get different DMX addresses. So I totally agree with you that assigning fixtures to sequences would be an essential addition to Freestyler.

And I wonder how it was done so far and why the need did not come up. Do people program their sequences from scratch every time their setup (in terms of used fixtures) changes?

Jochen

[Partyman]

If you want full control then every fixture should have a unique address. Having a unique address allows for unlimited programming possibilities. You then program any sequences you want and run them via submasters or Cuelists(whatever your personal preference). You can then include or exclude whatever fixtures you choose with programming. Please remember in programming that attributes carry over unless told differently. This means that that if a par can is red in sequence 1 but not included in sequence 2 then it will remain red when running sequence 2 unless you tell that par can to turn off in sequence 2.

[PhantomDj]

Your best bet would be to "build up" your DMX addresses and leave them constant:

Today you own 3 RGBW par cans which occupy 6 DMX channels
You set PAR1 on CH1, PAR2 on CH7, and PAR3 on CH13
You make your programs.

A month later you purchase 2 moving heads that occupy 16 DMX channels each.
You set them as MH1 on CH19 and MH2 on CH35
You create new programs for the moving heads that run in parallel with the ones for your cans

2 months later you buy other 2 RGBW par cans (same with your first ones)
You set them as PAR4 on CH51 and PAR5 on CH57
You now edit/update the par can programs to include these fixtures as well.

6 months later you get 4 Beams with 18 channels each.

You keep adding them as BEAM1 at CH63, BEAM2 at CH81, BEAM3 at CH99 and BEAM4 at CH117
You create new programs for the new fixtures.

At this time your show should have "programs" (sequences) for all your fixtures.
Even if you go to a new location and you don't use all your lights (e.g. you decide to leave the moving heads aat home) you don't need to re-adress everything (or anything at all)
You leave the lights with the DMX addresses they already use.
This will ensure that your programs keep running as per usual (despite that some fixtures are missing)
A DMX universe is NOT required to have it's addresses filled sequentially. This means that you are not required to re-address the2 par cans and the BEAMS in this example in order to use lower DMX values.

If at some point you stop to use some fixtures completely (as if you sold the units) then you can remove these fixtures from your programs (or delete the corresponding sequences) and free the DMX universe space they occupy.

In other words, design your light show to use everything you own and then just strip the lights down depending on what to use per each location.